antidepressants

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  1. Post
    Tormenta wrote:
    bradc has posted 372 times in this thread.
    Tormenta has apparently mentioned Mexico 2,510 times on this forum. But I find that to be extremely light.

  2. Post
    bradc wrote:
    I don't know how much you really want to get into the evolution of human thought, but hunter gatherer societies were what you could define as the environment that our species evolved under. Once you start bringing agriculture and all other manner of technological advance into the mix, you start altering how humans think, from living in the immediate, to requiring greater degrees of foresight and hindsight.

    We just assume how we think now is a given, but how we think now is radically different from 100 years ago, and astronomically different from 20,000 years ago.
    Sorry brah, they had incredible foresight and hindsight as hunter gathers - they had to know all the safe berries to eat, all the animals and how they migrated, they had to pay attention to seasons and actually plan for them. I can't accept a claim that we require greater degrees of foresight and hindsight compared to people who literally lived and died due to decisions on their food sources and shelter prep.

    bradc wrote:
    Right, so that's still a figure far less than what we experience now. So perhaps I need to elaborate, it's not that depression, anxiety didn't exist at all, but more that they were at a level that is statistically insignificant to what we experience today.
    Not really - we use per 100,000 they didn't have 100,000 - I'll try to look for the source later, but I imagine they had less than 10,000; that would be a rate of 30 per 100,000 if you extrapolate it out, which is over twice what NZ is currently at.

    bradc wrote:
    On that particular point, if you can't distinguish the difference between a sentry fire or stars, and the ability to have light everywhere and anywhere at the flick of a button, this is a pretty impossible discussion.

    The theory goes that early humans slept close to when it got dark, got up maybe in the middle of the night for a root and maybe a feed, and went back to sleep again. That's quite different from staying up till 11 and having an alarm wake you at 6.
    That's not something I really dispute - the new thought is that any source of light when you're sleeping or trying to sleep leads to an increase risk of depression; this can be an alarm clock, a sentry light, stars, or movie stars on your TV that you forgot to turn off.

    bradc wrote:
    Right, so that's an interesting example. Let's look at polar bears. Most Zoos have outlawed polar bears, because in captivity, polar bears tend to get fat, lazy, and go ****ing crazy, because they're not evolved to live in such confined spaces, with food on demand. They end up engaging in repetitive behaviour and manic activity. The same goes for a lot of other animals, it's often dubbed zoochosis. Why would humans be any different?
    My point is that depression happens in all three cases, including the wild. It neither proves your point that "we've been removed from our primal lifestyle and it has caused an increase in depression and suicide", nor does it prove any point of mine which is always that it is far more complex than going back to running in the bush and eating pooped out berries from birds as a dessert.

    The funny thing is, I don't entirely agree with either you or CK. I don't agree it is only chemicals, but I also don't agree that it is due to modernisation.

  3. Post
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    Sorry brah, they had incredible foresight and hindsight as hunter gathers - they had to know all the safe berries to eat, all the animals and how they migrated, they had to pay attention to seasons and actually plan for them. I can't accept a claim that we require greater degrees of foresight and hindsight compared to people who literally lived and died due to decisions on their food sources and shelter prep.
    I think if you educated yourself a bit further about day to day lifestyles of traditional peoples you might have a different opinion.
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    That's not something I really dispute - the new thought is that any source of light when you're sleeping or trying to sleep leads to an increase risk of depression; this can be an alarm clock, a sentry light, stars, or movie stars on your TV that you forgot to turn off.
    That's not a great understanding of the theory. The issues are more around less natural light during the day given how much of the population now works indoors, more light in the evenings, and shifts in how we sleep.
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    My point is that depression happens in all three cases, including the wild.
    I've not read any data about animals going nutty in the wild like the volume they display in captivity.
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    It neither proves your point that "we've been removed from our primal lifestyle and it has caused an increase in depression and suicide", nor does it prove any point of mine which is always that it is far more complex than going back to running in the bush and eating pooped out berries from birds as a dessert.
    I guess we're at a stalemate here. There's a rather large, peer reviewed, legitimate body of science now forming around lifestyle and mental health, to do with diet, decreased levels of physical activity, reduction in social bonding, and so on and so on - all elements severely impacted upon by modernity. Addressing these factors often plays a pivotal role in improving mental health, often more so that pharmaceuticals (but again just to stipulate, not always kids).

    I guess you could be right, it may all be coincidence, or some other reason you haven't actually presented yet. It could be that even though modern living has seen us increase massively in weight, instances of heart disease, diabetes and other ailments, that our brains are handling all the new stimulae just dandy, and that instances of depression and anxiety have remained static. There's just so few arrows pointing there.

  4. Post
    bradc wrote:
    I think if you educated yourself a bit further about day to day lifestyles of traditional peoples you might have a different opinion.
    Possibly.

    bradc wrote:
    That's not a great understanding of the theory. The issues are more around less natural light during the day given how much of the population now works indoors, more light in the evenings, and shifts in how we sleep.
    I miss remembered a study that linked late night light sources (at any level) as a contributor, I was wrong to assume star and moon light could effect things (it's at about 0.1 lux).

    Blue light in particular is a bitch. When we move into our new house I'm going to try and get LEDs that have reduced blue light.

    bradc wrote:
    I've not read any data about animals going nutty in the wild like the volume they display in captivity.
    It's not that they are doing it at the same levels, it is that they *can* do it.

    bradc wrote:
    I guess we're at a stalemate here. There's a rather large, peer reviewed, legitimate body of science now forming around lifestyle and mental health, to do with diet, decreased levels of physical activity, reduction in social bonding, and so on and so on - all elements severely impacted upon by modernity. Addressing these factors often plays a pivotal role in improving mental health, often more so that pharmaceuticals (but again just to stipulate, not always kids).
    Not really a stalemate, we aren't too far away from each other, I just don't think it's purely down to modernisation starting from the agriculture period and shift from hunter gatherer lifestyle.

    bradc wrote:
    I guess you could be right, it may all be coincidence, or some other reason you haven't actually presented yet. It could be that even though modern living has seen us increase massively in weight, instances of heart disease, diabetes and other ailments, that our brains are handling all the new stimulae just dandy, and that instances of depression and anxiety have remained static. There's just so few arrows pointing there.
    You're covering about 12,000 years with your 'modernisation' argument, you're now adding bad health to the table when that only happened in the last half century. That's a bit of a laugh. I also never said that they've remained static over the 12,000 years, they have over the last 60 or so for a lot of countries (where the data is questionable).

    My argument is primarily that depression has always been there, moderisation may be the reason for the uptick, maybe we've just bred more weaklings and we are keeping them around by treating them. Who the **** knows right now.

  5. Post
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    It's not that they are doing it at the same levels, it is that they *can* do it.
    Yeah so that's the fundamental difference in what each of us are saying. At no level am I saying that depression and anxiety are illnesses that have someone manifested in humans where they couldn't before. Humans haven't changed much genetically for quite some time, what we can suffer from now, we've been able to suffer from from 10s of thousands of years.

    It's the uptick that should be alarming, not that we're susceptible at all.

  6. Post
    bradc wrote:
    Tormenta has apparently mentioned Mexico 2,510 times on this forum. But I find that to be extremely light.
    Agreed

  7. Post
    bradc wrote:
    I'm saying it's the former clashing with the latter. And in the spirit of open mindedness you and CK seem to disavow the latter?
    As with any health issue, it always is mixture of both genes and environment. I have never disavowed it. You just seems to be heavily all environment, which is scientifically wrong in every way.

    I was born with ADHD eh. I can't change that. Sure, I can try and build up my concentration of neurons in my prefrontal cortex, but that takes time.

    Why do athletes get depression despite the ample amount of positive mood enhancing chemicals they produce via their job?

  8. Post
    ^ Athletes; the massive pressure to perform, the ensuing depression when they don’t?

  9. Post
    Frederick James wrote:
    ^ Athletes; the massive pressure to perform, the ensuing depression when they don’t?
    Pretty much... stress is a major risk factor for mental disorders

  10. Post
    Frederick James wrote:
    ^ Athletes; the massive pressure to perform, the ensuing depression when they don’t?
    Not always at all. There is a difference between the stress of the situation and how your body / mind reacts to that situation and how you perceive it. John Kirwan admitted at the peak of his performance career wise he was suffering from it.

    Michael Phelps' ADHD isn't cured via his job either....

  11. Post
    In fact here's Kevin Love, one of the best basketball players in the world, who suffered an anxiety / panic attack out of nowhere. Yes, the background issues put stress on him (family issues, being raised to 'be a man', poor start to the season) but there is still that element of genetics that makes you more susceptible.

    https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ke...ugh-something/

  12. Post
    ChineseKiwi wrote:
    I was born with ADHD eh. I can't change that.
    My sister in law has autism and the mental age of a 4 year old. She was born with that and was never going to be anything else. You were born pre-disposed to ADHD, just as some people are born pre-disposed to cancer. You're making out what you have is congenital.
    ChineseKiwi wrote:
    In fact here's Kevin Love, one of the best basketball players in the world, who suffered an anxiety / panic attack out of nowhere. Yes, the background issues put stress on him (family issues, being raised to 'be a man', poor start to the season) but there is still that element of genetics that makes you more susceptible.
    Here's something for you to contemplate. Annual instances of depression in over 60 year olds is around 10%. In 40-60 year olds, its 20%. In millennials, it's over 25%. Our genes aren't changing, but our propensity for depression is rising.

    I'm not sure what citing high profile, high stress professional athletes is supposed to prove. Having good social bonds aids mental wellbeing, I'm sure there's a heap of depressive types with over 1000 Facebook friends.

  13. Post
    bradc wrote:
    My sister in law has autism and the mental age of a 4 year old. She was born with that and was never going to be anything else. You were born pre-disposed to ADHD, just as some people are born pre-disposed to cancer. You're making out what you have is congenital.
    Let's just ignore that both autism and ADHD share dirt similar brain development from infanthood and both ASD and ADHD are often co-morbid. Hey, I'm borderline autistic (I got 5 in the test from my psych, 6 = let's investigate this more).

    Autism and ADHD are neurodevelopmental disorders that commonly co-occur, and share genetic and environmental risk factors.

    Understanding shared and distinct causal pathways to ASD and ADHD requires prospective longitudinal studies of infants who later develop the two conditions.

    Our review reveals developmental commonalities in domains like early motor delays and atypicalities in attention, while early temperament and head circumference may reflect more condition-specific disruptions.

  14. Post
    bradc wrote:
    Here's something for you to contemplate. Annual instances of depression in over 60 year olds is around 10%. In 40-60 year olds, its 20%. In millennials, it's over 25%. Our genes aren't changing, but our propensity for depression is rising.


    Ignoring how camp the video is - it was a link on Reddit.

    Apparently empathy has been decreasing for the last 60 years , currently at its lowest. There are links between empathy and depression (links suggest either high empathy is linked with depression, or low empathy is linked with depression; non-conclusive).

    Here is a nice article on personality traits and their associates with depression. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ns-finish-last - it lists that prosocial people (I'd put myself in that category) tend to be more prone to depression. It also links that lower maturity of prefrontal cortices for young-adults could be linked with their increase in rates of depression. With the hope that as the prefrontal cortices matures then you get to grips with controlling the other aspects of your brain which leads to less depression.

    Which, assuming it is true, would be why as you get older you're seeing less cases of depression.

    Do you have any historical trends of depression through age groups? Where is your source?

  15. Post
    And guess whose prefrontal cortex mature later than the general population? People with ADHD.

    In other areas of the brain, they develop earlier e.g. back of the brain that dictates spatial awareness.

    Basically ADHD is a difference, not so much an illness.

  16. Post
    so have you considered going into healthcare CK?

  17. Post
    ClavulanateV2 wrote:
    so have you considered going into healthcare CK?
    dem years of studying and poorstudentville though.

  18. Post
    ChineseKiwi wrote:
    dem years of studying and poorstudentville though.
    You can do a four year postgraduate degree over here though eh, wouldn't be that much of a hit

  19. Post
    KevinL wrote:
    You can do a four year postgraduate degree over here though eh, wouldn't be that much of a hit
    Really? That’s O for Oarsome! Straya 4 lyf, yo!

  20. Post
    KevinL wrote:
    You can do a four year postgraduate degree over here though eh, wouldn't be that much of a hit
    Yeah and straight in to earning a pretty good amount from that.
    The hours required over those 4 years and the 5-10 years following are a bit taxing though.

  21. Post
    ClavulanateV2 wrote:
    so have you considered going into healthcare CK?
    That would involve taking an interest in someone other than himself.

  22. Post
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    That would involve taking an interest in someone other than himself.
    Oh poor baby, tell me on the doll where CK hurt you.

    Honestly, why do you give two shits / y u mad?

  23. Post
    ChineseKiwi wrote:
    Oh poor baby, tell me on the doll where CK hurt you.

    Honestly, why do you give two shits / y u mad?


    Would have been way better if you didn't add the second sentence.

    Also, I can't tell if everyone is trying to troll CK by getting him to go to med school. Y'all want him to go and fail so he realises doctoring is hard?

    In all honesty he should probably go into pharmacy instead as that will give him far more knowledge on drug interactions.

  24. Post
    mental health is far more than just drugs though and I think it's the non-drug aspects that CK needs to learn the most about

  25. Post
    blissfuljoy wrote:
    In all honesty he should probably go into pharmacy instead as that will give him far more knowledge on drug interactions.
    pharmacology*

    you only do pharmacy if you want to sell panadol to old people